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Someone wrote "Shalom Madam, I had a few doubts based on this Talmud - Gitten 56b. I hope you will help me.(This is Sefaria version). It says:
"Onkelos then went and raised Jesus the Nazarene from the grave through necromancy.... Onkelos said to him: What is the punishment of that man, a euphemism for Jesus himself, in the next world? Jesus said to him: He is punished with boiling excrement. As the Master said: Anyone who mocks the words of the Sages will be sentenced to boiling excrement. And this was his sin, as he mocked the words of the Sages." 1, Is the Jesus mentioned here the Jesus of the New Testament? 2, Does the Torah teach that there are such punishments in gehinom? 3, Does Judaism believe in issues like Necromancy?(or Zohar support this)?" This is Gittin 57a, although it starts in Gittin 56b.... I have no clue why the Sefaria translation would say "Jesus of Nazareth" when the words "of Nazareth" or "the Nazarene" are not found in the Aramaic! Yep, someone inserted it in the translation even though it isn't in the Aramaic: אזל אסקיה [ליש"ו] בנגידא (לפושעי ישראל) א"ל מאן חשיב בההוא עלמא א"ל ישראל מהו לאדבוקי בהו א"ל טובתם דרוש רעתם לא תדרוש כל הנוגע בהן כאילו נוגע בבבת עינו And quite possibly the name Yeshu is not found in this passage either! Yep, one of the passages missionaries love to point to saying Jews say mean things about Jesus in the Talmud may not actually say the name Jesus and certainly doesn't say the name Nazarene or Nazareth! [ליש"ו] appears in the passage. Transliterated this would be L'ysh"u. Let's examine the part in question: "אזל אסקיה [ליש"ו] בנגידא (לפושעי ישראל)." This translates to "He went and raised [L'yesh"u] with necromancy (the sinners of Israel)." Did you notice that the name [L'ysh"u] is in square brackets and that there is a quotation mark (actually two apostrophes) in it? The square brackets are inserted words. Let me repeat that. The square brackets are inserted words. They are not in the Vilna Edition of the Talmud, printed in Vilna (now Vilnius), Lithuania, is by far the most common printed edition of the Talmud still in use today. In other words the name "Yeshu" or "Jesus" is NOT found in this passage in the most common version of the Talmud -- not at all! So why the square brackets and why is it in there at all? Somebody inserted it thinking it pertained to Jesus. It's possible that the name appeared in other copies of the Talmud -- but it might have been put there by Christian copiests (who notoriously destroyed the Talmud and tampered with it). It might have been inserted as a suggestion by some copiest and then others just assumed it was there... Who knows? And did you notice the quote mark between the Hebrew letters of shin and the vav - [ליש"ו]? It's use represents the גֵּרְשַׁ֞יִם / gershayim which is a cantillation mark used in trope. In print two apostrophes represent it. It's use represents acronyms and other multi-letter abbreviations. Let's summarize:
Having discussed all of that: let's just assume (for the sake of argument) that this passage mentions a man whose name we can translate as "Jesus" or "Yeshu." Does that automatically mean it is about Jesus? If it is about Jesus is the Talmud insulting him and saying he is boiling in excrement for eternity as a factual statement? As we often say on this forum: read it in context and understand what is being said, and even more importantly: what is being TAUGHT? Onkelos was a convert to Judaism who lived 2000 years ago. He was the nephew of the Roman Emperor Titus. (His mother was Titus' sister). This story is discussing how he came to convert to Judaism. This is simply a humorous story about the conversion of the Roman Emperor Titus' nephew (Onkelos). In the story he approaches 3 men who are now dead (necromancy) to ask them who is valued in the after life. First he asks his uncle, the Emperor Titus. Titus tells him it is the Jews -- but don't bother converting because you won't be able to observe all the mitzvot! Next he asks Balaam if he should convert, and then he asks what happened to Balaam in the afterlife. Balaam tells him that he is cooked in boiling semen as punishment for encouraging the Jews to engage in licentious behavior with the daughters of Moab. Third he approaches a man identified as [L'ysh"u] if he should convert to Judaism, and then asks what happened to him in the afterlife. This man replies that he is punished with boiling excrement... "The Gemara relates: Onkelos bar Kalonikos, the son of Titus’s sister, wanted to convert to Judaism. He went and raised Titus from the grave through necromancy, and said to him: Who is most important in that world where you are now? Titus said to him: The Jewish people. Onkelos asked him: Should I then attach myself to them here in this world? Titus said to him: Their commandments are numerous, and you will not be able to fulfill them. It is best that you do as follows: Go out and battle against them in that world, and you will become the chief, as it is written: “Her adversaries [tzareha] have become the chief” (Lamentations 1:5), which means: Anyone who distresses [meitzer] Israel will become the chief. Onkelos said to him: What is the punishment of that man, a euphemism for Titus himself, in the next world? Titus said to him: That which he decreed against himself, as he undergoes the following: Every day his ashes are gathered, and they judge him, and they burn him, and they scatter him over the seven seas." He then seeks out Balaam (now dead) and then another man [Yeshu] again in square brackets because it is not in the original... Gittin 57a then says "[Onkelos] went and raised [Yesh"u] with necromancy (the sinners of Israel) [Onkelos] asked: Who is honored in that world? [Yeshu] replied: Israel. [Onkelos asked:] What about joining them? [Yeshu] replied: Seek their good. Do not seek their bad. Whoever touches them is as if he touched the pupil of his eye. [Onkelos] asked: What is your punishment? [Yeshu answered]: In boiling excrement. As the mast said: Whoever mocks the words of the sages in punished in boiling excrement." It is a humorous story. Some people lack a sense of humor! We've already discussed whether or not the third man could be Jesus of the Christian bible. It is certainly possible, but it does not seem to be probable. There are a few men named Yeshu in the Talmud, who may or may not be Jesus. The information in this passage does not "fit" the Christian Jesus.... Remember -- all those words in square brackets [Yeshu] and [Onkelos] are INSERTIONS which do not appear in the passage as is the passage in parentheses... The man supposedly boiling in excrement was a "prominent sectarian of the early first century BCE who deviated from rabbinic tradition and created his own religion combining Hellenistic paganism with Judaism." Jesus was not a prominent sectarian who lived in the early first century BCE (he was born supposedly in the year 0 of the CE)... R' Gil Student wrote: "Interestingly, if someone were to claim that Yeshu in the passage above is Jesus, then Balaam cannot also refer to Jesus because both Balaam and Yeshu are in the passage together. In other words, it is self-contradicting to claim that the passages above about Balaam's being a harlot or dying young refer to Jesus and to claim that the passage above about Yeshu being punished also refers to Jesus. You can't have it both ways." 2, Does the Torah teach that there are such punishments in gehinom? 3, Does Judaism believe in issues like Necromancy?(or Zohar support this)" To answer your 2nd and 3rd points -- it is a STORY meant to teach a moral point -- it is not literal. Gehenna may or may not exist. If it does exist there is nothing physical there so how could anyone be boiling in excrement??? Our sages tell us that the punishment of Gehenna (again -- if it exists) is that when we die we are faced with seeing the wrongdoings we did in this life and our own shame and horror at our actions disturb us... It would be a place to learn what you did wrong -- not burning hell fire or boiling excrement... Communicating with the dead (necromancy) is considered a sin and is one of the "do nots" forbidden to Jews in the Torah. It may be possible (the T'nach tells us that Saul was able to speak to the deceased prophet Shmuel / Samuel), but it is forbidden. See Shmuel Alef / I Samuel 15:23. He used an Ov. An "Ov" is a medium... We are not permitted to inquire of a medium or a necromancer (an ov or a yidoni – see Avodat Kochavim 6:1 and 6:2), as per D'varim / Deuteronomy 18:10-11, “There shall not be found among you… one who inquires of a medium or a necromancer.”
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